Legislature(2003 - 2004)
04/19/2004 09:05 AM Senate FIN
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CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 303(RES)
"An Act relating to the Big Game Commercial Services Board and
to the regulation of big game hunting services and
transportation services; and providing for an effective date."
This was the second hearing for this bill in the Senate Finance
Committee.
Co-Chair Wilken explained that this legislation is sponsored by the
Senate Rules Committee at the request of the Legislative Budget &
Audit Committee (LB&A). Continuing, he stated that the legislation
would set up a Board system for the guiding industry similar to
what had been established in the past. He noted that the bill was
held in Committee to allow for public testimony, to allow the
Division of Occupational Licensing in the Department of Community
and Economic Development to testify, and to address Members'
concerns raised during the initial hearing on the bill. He stated
that the Members' packets contain a Division of Legislative Audit
Report, dated October 16, 2003, and he pointed out that CS SB
303(RES), Version 23-LS1655\H is before the Committee.
REPRESENTATIVE RALPH SAMUELS, Chair, Legislative Budget & Audit
Committee, explained that the bill was generated as a result of the
aforementioned audit's findings. He also stated that consideration
has been provided to Senator Olson's air taxi service concerns. He
noted that the definition of air taxi services, as derived from
current State statute, is detailed in Sec. 32, (10) page 22, line
four of the bill as follows.
(10) [(9)} "transportation services" means the carriage for
compensation of big game hunters, their equipment, or big game
animals harvested by hunters to, from, or in the field;
"transportation services" does not include the carriage by
aircraft of big game hunters, their equipment, or big game
animals harvested by hunters
(A) on nonstop flights between airports listed in
the Alaska supplement to the Airmen's Guide published by the
Federal Aviation Administration; or
(B) by an air taxi operator or air carrier for which
the carriage of big game hunters, their equipment, or big game
animals harvested by hunters is only an incidental portion of
its business; in this subparagraph, "incidental" means
transportation provided to a big game hunter by an air taxi
operator or air carrier who does not
(i) charge more than the usual tariff or
charter rate for the carriage of big game hunters, their
equipment, or big game animals harvested by hunters; or
(ii) advertise transportation services or big
game hunting services to the public; in this sub-subparagraph,
"advertise" means soliciting big game hunters to be customers
of an air taxi operator or air carrier for the purpose of
providing air transportation to, from, or in the field through
the use of print or electronic media, including advertising at
trade shows, or the use of hunt broker services or other
promotional services.
Representative Samuels stated that Penn Air, an air taxi service
provider which serves the Cold Bay region of the State and
transports bear hunters in the spring or fall as the hunt season is
open, is an example of a company whose service to big game hunters
is an incidental portion of their business. As such, he noted, Penn
Air, which does not advertise its service to hunters, would be
exempt from the proposed legislation, per this definition.
Representative Samuels clarified; however, that the legislation
would apply to an air taxi service whose "sole job" was to
transport hunters to a site.
Representative Samuels stated that the Audit was clear in its
determination that the re-establishment of the Board would be
beneficial to big game hunting as the expertise of a Board would be
preferred to having the Division of Occupational Licensing address
issues.
Senator Olson asked for further verification that the bill would
not impact air taxi service incidentals such as the size of
identification numbering on the aircraft.
Representative Samuels expressed that other than establishing a big
game board and removing those responsibilities from the Division of
Occupational Licensing, nothing is altered in regards to small air
taxi service operators. He stressed that it is not the intent of
the Board to impact air taxi service operations.
Senator Bunde stated that while transporting hunters and fishermen
might not be the primary business of some air taxi operators, that
business could not be summarily characterized as incidental
because, at times, that business could amount to 50 percent of some
air taxi's business.
Representative Samuels clarified that this legislation is specific
to big game hunting and therefore transporting fishermen would not
be a factor. He determined that because big game hunting
transportation is limited to approximately mid-August through
October, it would be difficult for a year-round operator to be
affected. He expressed that the operators who would be affected by
this legislation are those "who set up camp, they don't call
themselves a guide, but" nonetheless, he continued, they supply
packers, air transportation, and camps. However, he noted, "they
are not technically a guide," and thus, he continued, these are the
people this legislation would be targeting. He declared that it
would be impossible, due to the short period of time involved in
the big game hunting season, for year-round operating air taxi
service to accumulate the percentage of time that would subject
them to the conditions of this legislation
Senator Bunde agreed, but stated that while he understands the
intent of the bill, he would desire to explore its unintended
consequences. He reminded that air taxi services that operate float
planes or those that are short-term operators who specifically
transport and advertise to hunters, do not operate on a year-round
basis, and therefore, he stated, could be affected by this
legislation. However, he agreed that were the air taxi service to
also rent equipment and provide guides, packers and cooks in
addition to the transportation, then they should adhere to this
legislation, as they would qualify for the guide definition
criteria. He questioned whether an air taxi service that rents
equipment and transports hunters and their game meat, would meet
the definition of a guide.
Representative Samuels reiterated that the legislation "does not
actually change anything" except that, with the establishment of a
Big Game Board, guides would be required to work with the Board
instead of with the Division of Occupational Licensing. He stressed
that no rules or other regulations would be changed.
Senator Bunde responded that, while laws might not change, they
would be "interpreted far more strictly" by the Big Game Board.
Senator Dyson asked whether, in addition to air transportation,
other modes of surface transportation such as boats or horses,
would be affected by this legislation.
Co-Chair Wilken interjected that there is concern regarding boat
transportation, specifically whether boats used to transport and
lodge hunters, would, as a result of this legislation, qualify as a
camp.
Representative Samuels reiterated that, "whatever it is now, is
what it would be" were this legislation enacted.
Co-Chair Wilken pointed out that communications from members of the
Alaska Outdoor Council (AOC) indicate that they either support or
do not support this bill. Therefore, he asked whether AOC has
submitted a formal position on this bill.
Representative Samuels replied that the organization has not
provided a definitive position.
Co-Chair Wilken stated that while the association might not have
presented a formal position, a common concern is that the operation
might return to the "good ol' boys' club" approach that was the
norm in the 1990s. This concern, he surmised, could be one of the
reasons this legislation has been developed.
Senator Bunde asked whether the Lake Hood Air Taxi Association has
commented on the bill.
Representative Samuels responded that no information has been
forthcoming from that or any other air taxi organizations; however,
he noted, numerous air taxi operators and guides have weighed in on
the issue.
BRIAN WILSON, Southeast Alaska Boat Transporter, noted that many of
his questions have been answered by the discussion. However, he
opined that the direction of the bill has shifted from the
recommendations of the audit report in that the Big Game Guide
Board could restrict usage areas by saying that a transporter must
have a permit to utilize certain areas. He shared that the
definition of a boat transporter is one who transports a hunter
from Point A to Point B. Therefore, he voiced concern that the bill
might restrict transporters' ability to could deliver hunters to
certain areas.
Representative Samuels responded that exclusive use areas are not
addressed in this bill.
Mr. Wilson identified the exclusive use area language to be located
in Section 29, Subsection (g), on page 19, lines eight through 13,
that reads as follows.
(g) At least 60 days before providing transportation
services to, from, or in an area as may be determined by the
board, a transporter shall inform the department, in person or
by registered mail on a registration form provided by the
department, that the transporter will be providing
transportation services to, from, or in the use area. The
board may establish transporter use areas and adopt
regulations to implement this subsection, as the board
considers necessary.
Co-Chair Wilken stated that this concern would be addressed.
Mr. Wilson also requested that due to the fact that transporters
would be affected by the actions of the Guide Board, that
consideration to given to providing them "equal representation" on
the Board. He recommended that the Board have two guides and one
transporter in its membership.
Co-Chair Wilken pointed out that the composition of the Board is
identified on page two, Section 3 (b) as follows.
(b)The board consists of seven members as follows:
(1) two members who are current, licensed registered
guide-outfitters;
(2) one member who is a licensed transporter;
(3) one member of the Board of Game who is chosen by
the Board of Game and who does not hold a guide or transport
license;
(4) two members who represent private landholders
affected by guided hunting activities or transportation
services and who do not hold a license issued under this
chapter; and
(5) one public member.
Co-Chair Wilken understood therefore that Mr. Wilson is
recommending that the Board membership be changed to consist of two
rather than one transport member.
Representative Samuels agreed with the suggestion to have two
transporters on the Board.
Mr. Wilson stated that another point of concern regards the
definition of transporter; specifically he continued, as it has the
appearance of incorporating "a no-compete clause." Furthermore, he
stated that in his business as a boat transporter, his boat is used
as a camp. He noted Representative Samuels' earlier remarks, which
specified there to be no change in the existing law in this regard;
however, he voiced concern that the bill implies that he could not
provide a camp. He suggested that this issue be clarified.
Representative Samuels reiterated that transporter language remains
unchanged and therefore reflects current statute.
Mr. Wilson acknowledged Representative Samuels comment.
Senator Bunde observed that even though current statutes might
exist, their language should be updated to reflect current
situations.
JOE KLUTSCH, Representative, Alaska Professional Hunters
Association, testified via teleconference from an offnet site and
informed the Committee that the Association's members support this
legislation.
Mr. Klutsch informed the Committee that his "extensive background"
in the guiding industry has afforded him the opportunity to speak
from experience regarding the legislative history and the history
of the allocation of big game hunting resources. He stated that the
justifications for instituting the Big Game Board "are simple" as
the primary reason to establish the Board would be to provide
interaction between the various regulatory agencies. Continuing, he
advised that the issues "are infinitely more complex now than they
were in the 1980's and pre-ANILCA (Alaska National Interest Lands
Conservation Act)," as there are now five State and seven federal
entities involved in the permitting process of these activities.
Continuing, he noted that the "lack of coordination" between the
agencies results in information and regulatory "disconnect" which
requires hunters to adhere to different timelines and requirements.
He declared that were a Board established, open discussions to
coordinate efforts and respond to situations, in a timely manner,
could occur. Furthermore, he noted, a Board could develop and
retain institutional knowledge rather than information being lost
as personnel and administrations change. Ultimately he stressed,
wildlife resources would suffer were the current situation to
continue unchanged.
Mr. Klutsch contended that the establishment of a Big Game Board
would be beneficial to users, guides, transporters, and the
resources. Furthermore, he opined, a lack of proper regulations
would negatively affect the resources and all the users including
subsistence users. He encouraged the Members to move this "good
piece of legislation" forward.
PAUL JOHNSON, Registered Guide, testified via teleconference from
an offnet site and informed the Committee that he has been a guide
in the Elfin Cove area in excess of 30 years. In addition, he noted
that he had been a member of the task force that established the
original Big Game Board. Furthermore, he noted that this
legislation, with a few changes, is similar to the guidelines
established regarding the original Board. He advised the Committee
that the original Board established a Commercial Services Board to
address the continuing concern regarding the "good ol' boy" club
and had, in effect, identified the various components of the
industry such as the transporters and the guides.
Mr. Johnson declared that the Board was terminated due to
differences of opinions relating to restricted guide areas rather
than as the result of concerns over transporters or the "good ol'
boys" club. He specified that other than the issue regarding guide
areas, the original board had "a clean audit" and was working well.
Mr. Johnson opined that this bill does not include language
regarding restricted guide areas. He stated that "the overall
issue" is to protect the continuation of this $150 million State
industry. He noted that were this Board not reestablished, then the
industry, which he noted pays more taxes to the State than any
other industry, would be negatively impacted. Continuing, he
declared that this industry does not request advertising funding,
is not a burden to the State, and produces more benefits to the
State than any other industry. He asked the Committee to help the
industry by re-establishing the Board as he declared that the ten
years since the board was terminated have negatively impacted the
industry.
Mr. Johnson agreed with Senator Bunde that the industry has changed
and that regulations should be updated to continue to protect the
resources. He voiced no preference regarding the Board make-up, but
confirmed that the bill would not change current regulations
pertaining to the definitions of transporters, guides, or
incidentals. He stated that these issues were "hashed out" over a
three-month period by the Task Force that established the original
Board. He noted that when the ""sunset" legislation was before the
Legislature, continuation of the Board was widely supported in the
House of Representatives but failed due to its lack of progress
through the Committee process in the Senate. He urged the Committee
to pass this legislation, as he attested, it is "desperately
needed."
HENRY TIFFANY, Registered Master Guide, testified via
teleconference from an offnet site, and urged passage of the bill,
as it would benefit the resource, the hunters, and the guiding
industry. He echoed previous testimony regarding the industry's
contribution of more than $150 million to the State's economy. He
noted that the guiding industry is in desperate need of assistance
and this "is one of the first steps that should be taken" to
address the industry's needs.
Senator Olson asked whether Mr. Tiffany is speaking on behalf of
any guiding association.
Mr. Tiffany clarified that these are his personal comments as a
concerned citizen, constituent, and Master Guide.
RICK URION, Director, Division of Occupational Licensing,
Department of Community and Economic Development agreed with the
testimony supporting the bill, as he attested "this is definitely
an area that needs some attention." He shared that his Division
currently addresses complaints from "disgruntled" Big Game Hunting
customers, and he shared that the Department is frustrated by the
fact that there is no avenue through which to address issues
raised. He stated that the Division's memorandum to Co-Chair
Wilken's office, dated April 5, 2004 [copy on file] was compiled by
the Division's Anchorage Investigative Office, which handles the
complaints, in order to offer suggestions regarding how to address
concerns.
Mr. Urion declared that every hunt trip should be bound by a
written contract because, he noted, the primary customer complaint
is that their hunting agreement was not upheld. He pointed out that
the Division is currently unable to address "simple" disciplinary
measures for such things as same day airborne hunting, wanton
waste, and closed season hunting violations.
Mr. Urion also noted that the Board, rather than the Division,
could better develop applicable definitions, as attested by the
fact that due to a disagreement between the Division and the
Department of Public Safety, it took four months to develop a
definition of the term "in the field." Furthermore, he stressed
that the Board could more appropriately implement required laws and
information. To clarify this point, he recounted a situation in
which a guide had a permanent home by a lake on remote property,
which was accessible only by floatplane or boat. Continuing, he
disclosed that the question of whether this home was "in the field"
arose, and contrary to Mr. Urion's opinion, the ruling was that
because it was a permanent home rather than a camp, it was ruled
"not in the field." He attested that situations like this are very
frustrating to the Division. In summary, he stated that whether or
not a Board were established, the Division concurs with the guiding
industry's position that assistance must be provided to address
guidelines, enforcement, and communication between the various
enforcement agencies.
Senator Bunde asked whether the Division's law enforcement concern
lies with its inability to remove violator's guide licenses. He
noted that law enforcement officials enforce and prosecute
violations.
Mr. Urion affirmed that the Department of Public Safety does
conduct the majority of the field enforcement. He clarified that
the Division is limited to issuing licenses and could only remove a
license upon the determination that it was issued under fraudulent
circumstances.
Mr. Urion reiterated that the Division receives numerous
"justifiable" complaints to which, they currently, could "do
nothing about."
Senator Bunde agreed that some enforcement in this regard is
required. He stated that the Department of Public Safety does a
good job of field enforcement.
Senator Bunde asked whether the Department's fiscal note, while
small, could be supported by raising the cost of guide license
fees.
Mr. Urion responded that, were a Board established, its expense
would be offset by an increase in Guide licensing fees, as State
law requires that expenses "associated with regulating a
profession" be supported in such a manner.
Senator Hoffman asked regarding Board member appointments and term
lengths.
SFC 04 # 85, Side B 09:52 AM
Senator Hoffman also suggested that subsistence hunters be
represented on the Board, as they would be affected by this
legislation.
Representative Samuels responded that, as routine, the Governor
would make the Board appointments.
Senator Hoffman observed that this is not explicitly stated in the
bill.
Representative Samuels noted that the term timeframes are also not
specified in the legislation, and that he would support an
amendment specifying staggered, three-year terms if the Committee
so desired. Otherwise, he surmised that the normal Board process
would apply in this situation.
Senator Hoffman furthered his request that subsistence hunters be
represented on the Board.
Representative Samuels pointed out that the Board make-up proposed
in the Senate Resources committee substitute would consist of seven
members, and he commented that the subsistence hunter issue could
be resolved via the private landholder member representation.
Continuing, he noted that during the Senate Resources Committee
hearing, Native Corporation representation had been discussed as
their lands are utilized by hunters; however, he continued, it was
determined that the specification that the two members representing
private landholders on the Board, would suffice in this regard.
While stressing that the Board should remain balanced, he agreed
with the recommendation that the transporter representation should
match that of the guide representation, which is currently set at
two.
Senator Hoffman pointed out that a Native Corporation landholder
representative might not be a subsistence user.
Co-Chair Wilken noted that the question regarding who appoints the
members and the composition of their initial and on-going terms
should be further clarified.
HENRY WEBB, Staff to Representative Ralph Samuels and Aide,
Legislative Budget & Audit Committee, informed the Committee that
the appointments and the terms would follow established and State's
standard board protocol for appointment and terms.
Co-Chair Wilken asked for specifics such as whether the terms would
be staggered.
Mr. Webb understood that the appointments would be for four-year,
staggered terms.
Co-Chair Wilken asked how the initial staggering of the newly
created board of seven people would operate.
Mr. Urion pointed out that that this information is located in Sec.
41, page 26, beginning on line 29 and continuing through page 27,
line 9, as follows.
Sec. 41. The uncodified law of the State of Alaska is
amended by adding a new section to read:
INITIAL APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS OF THE BIG GAME
COMMERCIAL SERVICES BOARD. (a) Notwithstanding AS 08.54.591,
added by sec. 3 of this Act, and AS 39.05.055, the initially
appointed members of the Big Game Commercial Services Board
shall be appointed by the governor to terms as follows: one
member serves for one year, two members serve for two years,
two members serve for three years, and two members serve for
four years.
(b) The governor shall appoint the initial members
of the Big Game Commercial Services Board, as provided for
under AS 08.54.591(a), added by sec. 3 of this Act, before
December 1, 2004.
(c) The governor shall appoint persons who are
active, licensed registered guides at the time of the
appointment to fill the initial registered guide-outfitter
positions on the Big Game Commercial Services Board.
Conceptual Amendment #1: This amendment alters the make-up of the
seven-member board as specified in Sec. 3 (b)(2), on page two,
beginning on line six by specifying that there be two licensed
transporters on the Board instead of one.
This conceptual amendment further changes the make-up of the Board
by reducing the private landholder Board members from two to one as
noted in Sec. 3 (b) (4) on page two, line nine.
These proposed language changes would therefore read as follows.
(b) The board consists of seven members as follows:
(1) two members who are current, licensed registered
guide-outfitters;
(2) two members who are licensed transporters;
(3) one member of the Board of Game who is chosen by the
Board of Game and who does not hold a guide or transport
license;
(4) one member who represents private landholders
affected by guided hunting activities or transportation
services and who does not hold a license issued under this
chapter; and
(5) one public member.
Co-Chair Wilken moved to adopt Amendment #1. He objected for
discussion.
Senator Hoffman suggested that there be one rather than two members
representing guide- outfitters as specified in (b)(1), and that a
user group be incorporated into the Board's make-up.
Co-Chair Green voiced that this is an "industry-oversight board"
rather than a user-oversight board. Furthermore, she stated that
the Board of Game might more appropriately address Senator
Hoffman's concerns as it currently oversees user groups.
Representative Samuels agreed with Co-Chair Green's comments as he
asserted that this Board would address such things as codes of
ethics, complaints from clients, and standards for the guiding
industry. He noted that it has been argued that the inclusion of a
public member, who might know little about Big Game issues, on the
previous Big Game Board resulted in some problems. Therefore, he
suggested that the Board might operate smoother were that position
eliminated to allow for two transporter members on the Board.
Without objection, Co-Chair Wilken withdrew his motion to adopt
Amendment #1.
Co-Chair Green asked Mr. Urion whether, aside from the Division's
concern about contracts, there are any other industry issues or
violations of law that should be addressed to assist the Division
in its efforts to manage this industry. She voiced that firearm
issues are already addressed by the State and that the guide
standards should meet the level expected of a private citizen. In
summary, she declared that she is not convinced that another level
of oversight should be implemented.
Mr. Urion agreed that firearm violations are already addressed in
law, however, he continued that there is nothing in regulation
currently that could allow the Division to remove or deny a Guide's
license were he or she convicted of a serious crime such as
domestic violence.
Co-Chair Wilken noted that it would be beneficial to the sponsor
were he to review the legislation in order to determine whether the
concerns raised by the Division of Occupational Licensing's
investigative staff in the aforementioned memorandum are addressed
by this legislation.
Co-Chair Green understood therefore that the concerns being
addressed are the "views" of the Division rather than the concerns
of those involved in the industry.
Co-Chair Wilken ordered the bill HELD in Committee.
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